107 Comments so far

1. PJD February 2nd, 2007 2:24 pm

   Pretty scary news.

   The idea an economic interest is attempting to “buy” a desired scientific result goes way beyond sabotaging needed action on potentially catastrophic climate change. It represents an attack on the 350-year-old age of enlightenment itself. The only difference is that an irrational market-fetishism, where ideas themselves are to be valued only in accordance with dollar-values assigned to them, has replaced the dictates of religious authorities.

2. PJD February 2nd, 2007 2:27 pm

   Who wants to be the next Galileo and state what the real credible consequences or runaway global warming could be…

3. delia February 2nd, 2007 8:55 pm

   In other words, we’re being set up for another coupla years of fiddling while the planet burns.

4. moreover February 3rd, 2007 12:04 am

   I wonder how much publicity this propaganda effort will get. It sure seems instructive. My impression is that way too few people know about the millions that the oil industry has poured into think tanks/propaganda factories under the stated objective to sow doubt. In US journalism the allegation of propaganda operations is not a polite thing to raise, even if the evidence is in print.

5. Edip Yuksel February 3rd, 2007 8:36 am

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6. Buckoo February 3rd, 2007 11:01 am

   This seems to be the standard practice with these Oil funded Groups. We know that the AEI is not a philanthropic group, they’re offering a price for what they were told, (by whom?) they need.

   The responsibility of integrity is now the choice of the scientists and economists.

7. Simbelmyne February 3rd, 2007 1:05 pm

   Unfortunately, that is one of the results of a culture so dominated by small, super wealthy interest groups. They will pour lots of money into avoiding anything that might jeopardize the status quo. Luckily, there are many now who are trying to get things moving.

   Of, course in the end this affects all of us. The effects of protecting the environment may not be immediately tangible in the area of economics but if they were wise enough they would realize that the long term returns would more than justify any inconvenience. How can you have any industry when the earth’s resources are spent? They would do well to understand that investing in the planet and society will have generous rewards later.

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8. snobunny February 3rd, 2007 2:03 pm

   The merits of scientific inquiry or experiment have NOTHING to do with who funds it. This kind of character assasination and swift boating is worthy of Rove, not discussion. The so-called concensus scientist who use this approach is implying that he would shade his results to please his employers.

   No reputable scientist disputes that the earth is warming. It has been warming and cooling since its inception. We are now in a warming period. Solutions to differential equations run forward and backwards in time. If they are complete, then they can tell you why tropical conditions appeared in artics millenia ago when no humans were on earth. They can’t and won’t do that because it would contradict their hysterical claims now.

9. PJD February 3rd, 2007 3:27 pm

   snobunny,

   You missed the point of the article, the money is being offered with the requirement that the scientists produce a result they want to see. This is complete corruption of science, and any scientist

   Actually, a hypothetical DE that can deterministically predict climate indefinitely is, according to Chaos Theory, impossible. Our current weather forecast modeling run forward or backward are only good for about 10 days, regardless of the precision of the data and the computational power applied, after that the butterfly effect takes hold.

   No one denies that large fluctuations in climate have occurred over geologic time – largely related to the extensive drifting, colliding and breakup of the of the continental masses, but there also are quite catastrophic climatic events in the geologic record. The probable runaway global warming and mass-extinction event at the end of the Permian era killed off more than 95 percent of all species during a period of extreme heat, high CO2 and low O2 levels in the atmosphere. There is increasing evidence that the current anthropogenic CO2 levels, which are far above any levels measured from ice cores back to 600K years BP, were probably met or exceeded only during this mass extinction, which some believe came very close to snuffing all life out.

   Life exists on earth only because of a incredibly improbable combination of circumstances arising in it’s evolution. There is no evidence that God ever altered the laws of physics so we can continue to exist. It is up to us.

   Consider that building codes require that buildings be designed to keep the occupants safe from winds and earthquakes that have only a small chance of actually occurring. What designs should we be incorporating into our economy, society and politics to prevent even a small chance of an event that could wipe us out?

10. Randy February 3rd, 2007 7:16 pm

    We all know that the climate has changed continuously through the history of the planet….and any idiot can see, just through their own observations where they live, that the climate is changing very quickly. We will continue to argue for years about why, who and how much. In the meantime this is the first time in human history that we can understand that something radical and potentially catastrophic is happening to our species, and all others, no matter whether its caused by our actions or not. When will we quit arguing about the cause of what we all agree is going on around us, understand that if this is a natural cycle, that our activities are enhancing (speeding)it, and do what we can to slow global warming, if for no other reason, than to fend off what is going to be an humanitarian and economic disaster. Politicians, pundits, economists and writers here in North America will discuss for years how we are going to fix this, while the oil lobby throws up resistance. In the meantime, switching to fluorescent light bulbs and maintaining air pressure in our automobile tires aren’t going to make a huge difference. Perhaps those 6 billion cows on the planet, whose methane ruminations produce twice the greenhouse warming potential as all of our cars and industry do are the real problem! Don’t like global warming? Quit eating beef!

11. livaday February 3rd, 2007 8:34 pm

    The debate about the causes of global warming clouds the real issue. Pollution is bad for all of us, always has been, and every effort should be made to curtail same. If curtailing pollution will slow global warming, and I personally believe it will, so much the better, but a cleaner environment is to be desired for the health of the world. What’s not to understand?

12. Richard Posner February 3rd, 2007 9:47 pm

    snobunny, I’m sick of all you capitalists in denial. You can lie on the tracks if you want to and insist that there’s no train a-cumin. You can twist and cherry-pick all kinds of “facts” and produce reams of seemingly scholarly “evidence” that there is no train and no reason to be concerned. You won’t be any less dead after the event no matter how convincingly you argue against the possibility of its occurrence.

    I’ve really passed the point of caring what any of you profess to believe. My only hope is that the scientific community has GREATLY underestimated the speed at which the disaster will come to pass. I would truly love to see Manhattan up to its penthouses in seawater!

    I’m nearing the end of my blue-collar, working poor life. I will probably be able to “retire” only by being carried off my job in a body bag. Why? Because psycho-conservative, rapacious capitalists have an insatiable addiction to wealth and power. They must have everything and no one else is worthy of anything. Do I sound bitter? There’s a good reason for that. I am. And outraged beyond expression.

    So be it. Apparently capitalists can’t live without an obscene excess of unnecessary and mostly worthless status symbols. Evidently you see yourselves as elite, an aristocracy. If you are willing to destroy the very system that provides all that is essential to human life to satisfy your needs, go for it! I pray that the seeds you have sown come to fruition while you, and I, are still alive to witness the harvest. I curse you to live to watch your children suffer the same fate to which you have condemned all the peasants you have created. Neither vast riches nor all the technology you can bring to bear will be adequate to save you, or yours, from the total collapse of the earth’s ecosystem.

    You break it you buy it.

13. snobunny February 3rd, 2007 9:49 pm

    Gosh PJD, maybe I did misinterpret the headline about financialy influencing scientific studies for a tutorial on chaos theory. Edward Lorenz, an unemployed mathemetician working as a meteorologist indeed resurfaced the issue. I guess that if the ‘decider’ addresses the nation that maybe we can try to influence chaos by pledges and throwing more money at the issue which we have no control over. Randy’s subsequent post might also help. Tax and fund Beano to prevent bovine farting! The Aussies actually already tax sheep herders for same. Guess it’s not working very well yet.

    Of course humans influence the environment! Each human, recumbent or SUV bound, contributes 100 Watts of heat. 6.5 billion times 100 is the equivalent of 250,000 Palo Verde nuclear plants generating heat. Don’t need Cray computers to calculate that one. Your approach might also favor eliminating or taxing sex to eliminate STD’s. It is a given that it would solve the problem but won’t work because of the non-linear feedback system called humanity.
    Over 2 billion people on the Asian continent and subcontinent are sick of pulling ricksaws and you can count on one fact, every ounce of fossil fuel will be consumed on this planet. Live with it. As a retired physicist, I think we will rise to the occasion and adapt to it. Some of us may have to retreat from our multimillion dollar condominiums built on sandbars, but we will adapt. I’m sure you are well meaning, but invest your energies in preventing killing and maiming of other human beings [whic is our choice] rather than King Canute ventures to influence nature.

14. Oneworld February 4th, 2007 1:38 am

    This action designed to buy a scientific result is not the first attempt by the Bush Administration and its industry supporters to skew scientific research. In 2003 “big sugar” bullied the World Health Organization to alter its report “Diet, Nutrition and the Prevention of Chronic Diseases”, which said that sugar should account for no more than 10% of a healthy diet. The industry tried to strong-arm WHO by threatening US Government withdrawal of its $406 million funding. Of course one must go to a British newspaper to find this out: http://www.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,3604,940287,00.html or to a Canadian documentary: http://www.cbc.ca/documentaries/bigsugar/

15. Uncle Buck February 4th, 2007 5:46 am

    snobunny: The effects of warming are clearly visible. Animals are venturing beyond their normal ranges. Birds, bugs, trees, tree diseases, are all signs of warmth reaching north. The ice is melting. War is horrible and everyone should act to stop it. Same with global warming.

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17. genaman February 4th, 2007 9:10 am

    Why is  anyone surprised about these acts?
    This kind of Anti-Environment propaganda has been going on all the way back to the 1970’s.
    That is why in every business conversation they manage to use the word ENVIRONMENT like it always has been a business term.

    Even with right on our side I very much doubt we will have the power to do much of anything about Global Warming.
    You see those same businesses own us.
    The only thing we will have is the last laugh as they get to see what they’ve really done.
    Oh how I wish it were different.

18. iammyself February 4th, 2007 2:59 pm

    I don’t think snobunny misses the point. I think he’s just one of the ones living on a sandbar with the loot gotten from corporate benefactors.

    The title of this thread (and the point) is Scientists Offered Cash to Dispute Climate Study. If you, snobunny, support that scientists should be paid off, then why don’t you just come out and say so? Or, maybe you already did.

19. franpierce February 4th, 2007 3:56 pm

    Several times in these discussions and in the article itself, reference was made to the fact that ExxonMobil “might use the remarks of duped/paid scientists for political gain.” I consider political gain to be a much less serious moral flaw than what their REAL agenda is – FINANCIAL GAIN! The only reason these bigwigs are interested in political gain is so that they can maintain their OBSCENE lifestyles and mega-riches.

20. snobunny February 4th, 2007 7:46 pm

    Uncle Buck:
    The flora and fauna migrations that you note are excellent examples of nature adapting to inevitable climate changes. So also will we, with the added advantage of intelligence and technology to help us do it. Throwing money or extracting it using penalties will not be able to influence a chaotic process by definition. The earth’s poles reverse periodically by nonlinear Navier Stokes equations which also govern surface flow. We are headed for a null as we speak and when it occurs we will be subject to killer cosmic rays as are our astronauts outside the spacecraft. Placing magnetite strategically on the surface or some other gimmick will not influence it.

    Wars of aggression to grab less powerful folk’s resources are, on the other hand, an option which we can do in a heartbeat with no uncertainty.

    Posner:
    I feel bad that you didn’t reach the goals you set out for yourself. Granted, ninety nine percent of financial success is due to opportunity. But don’t try to pin your failed dreams on others backs by resorting to character assassination or inflicting curses. Neither of my parents worked for better than minimum wage so I suppose I am a peasant at heart myself.

    Iammyself:
    It is really none of your business, but anyway, my three plus decades working as a research physicist in a government lab certainly didn’t make me rich. My point, which you apparently cannot grasp, is that I have not met a single engineer of physicist who ‘cooked’ their data to satisfy a funding source. By the nature of peer reviewed scientific research, such an approach would be professional suicide because you would be found out. The fossil fuel industry is in a win win situation. If demand drops by one-half, the price will double and if we wish to stock our grocery shelves we will pay it. What they are doing is enlisting people who are credentialed enough to read the pertinent scientific literature [not press releases] to instruct them on policy. In the industry this is called ‘white paper review’. You enlist folks to bring you up to speed on issues outside your field of expertise by enlisting their inputs.

21. iammyself February 5th, 2007 9:57 am

    snobunny,

    Oh, but it is my business to know how and where your research money came from. This is known as “context”, which even a scientist should be able to grasp.

    The industry (since when is science an “industry”? ah, perhaps that’s the problem!), may call it ‘white paper review’, but I think the rest of us see it for what it is: Graft.

    Bush also enlisted folks to bring him up to speed on Iraq. Very accurate and useful info he got, no? When power and money are used to extract information, that information is going to be tailored, not objective.

    I think most of us know what you seem to miss: Follow the money, it will lead you to the source…and the conclusion.

22. ezeflyer February 6th, 2007 11:05 am

    Offering scientists 10 grand is not much for big oil, considering the billions in profits they made this year. Offering more to politicians through the years has lost us our democracy. For a permanent solution to the system of legalized bribery, go to:

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23. cretos February 6th, 2007 2:17 pm

    I wish there were money to talk the oil companies out of being stubborn. $10,000 is barely enough to even begin a scientific investigation of this scale. What, are they going to hire high school students and pay them under the table too? I think everyone needs to question the motives of an oil company that only offers pocket change to “high profile” scientists to challenge such a high profile issue. I don’t see what is so hard for an oil company to admit to reason instead of stalling our efforts to make this world a better place. They could spend their money more wisely.

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