19 Comments so far

1. pangolin February 28th, 2007 3:54 pm

   God help us another vegetarian screed. The day that liberals in the US express as much concern over the 750K homeless in america as they do for their pets I will know that they understand compassion.

   Compassion is when you spend as much time and money defending your neighbors right to live under adequate shelter as you spend keeping your “fur babies” happy. We’re not there yet.

   Maybe I can get a rabbit from the butcher for tonight. Humans evolved eating meat. Most of us won’t willingly give it up. Get used to it.

2. bildad February 28th, 2007 5:48 pm

   Showing compassion for animals (who feel pain, fear and familial feelings just as we do) does not mean you have less of it to show to people! Compassion is an active verb: at any given moment, each of us has a choice between cruelty and kindness. Make a compassionate choice and your capacity for kindness (love) grows. Make a cruel choice and your capacity for cruelty (hate) grows. Attempting the nearly impossible but worthwhile goal of living cruelty free will only enhance your ability to feel empathy for the suffering of others, whether they are people or the other animals with whom we share over 90+% of our DNA.

   Pangolin, as defensive as you are about this topic, it’s obvious that you really have a lot of hate built up inside yourself. Facing one’s own inner cruelty toward creatures and people weaker than ourselves is difficult I know, but it is a worthwhile effort. Choosing kindness over cruelty will not only make you a better person, it will also help to save the planet, since slaughterhouses and the associated industrial agriculture are responsible for a great deal of the pollution in our rivers and oceans, and they are the second-largest contributor to global warming. Have a heart. It won’t hurt you.

3. blessthebeasts February 28th, 2007 7:07 pm

   Pangolin’s post is indicative of the hostility toward vegans that Colleen mentioned. I agree with bildad that it’s really a defense mechanism. Deep down, anyone would have to acknowledge that the animal cruelty endemic in our food industry is horrific, but it is easier to just ignore it and dismiss those who care as kooks. And while it may be true that humans evolved eating meat, that doesn’t mean that we can’t evolve past it.

4. weebler February 28th, 2007 8:09 pm

   Humans also evolved with human slavery, rape and war. In fact, it was only 150 years ago that prominent religious leaders argued that it was immoral to oppose human slavery–as it was sanctioned by God.

   The “people first” excuse as Pangolin mentions, begs the question: if we need to put human concerns first(however you define them) should people of different races, gender, economic status, religion etc also prioritize their compassion and ethics even further? So if you are a black christian, shouldnt you be more concerned about homeless black people than homeless asians? Stick to your own right?

   These are the types of questions that a human supremacist like Pangolin cant answer–because like the racial supremacist or believer in manifest destiny, they dont put much thought into their flawed ideology.

   http://animalvegfaq.tripod.com

5. weebler February 28th, 2007 8:13 pm

   Humans also evolved with human slavery, rape and war. In fact, it was only 150 years ago that prominent religious leaders argued that it was immoral to oppose human slavery–as it was sanctioned by God.

   The “people first” excuse as Pangolin mentions, begs the question: if we need to put human concerns first(however you define them) should people of different races, gender, economic status, religion etc also prioritize their compassion and ethics even further? So if you are a black christian, shouldnt you be more concerned about homeless black people than homeless asians? Stick to your own right?

   These are the types of questions that a human supremacist like Pangolin cant answer–because like the racial supremacist or believer in manifest destiny, they dont put much thought into their flawed ideology.

6. AFS February 28th, 2007 8:30 pm

   A carrot or other vegetable, when killed, cannot scream or show it’s agony in any way.

   We, too, are animals. We must eat to survive. What we choose to eat is our business. If you decide that other animals are not what you wish, that’s just fine. But please don’t condem the rest of us.

   Our species did not fight it’s way to the top of the food chain to eat tofu.

   Go kill another veggie.

7. jp February 28th, 2007 9:05 pm

   Quite astonishing to read the hostile response from some of you. Pangolin - to feel compassion for animals is not to ignore human suffering. Indeed, it is precisely this logical fallacy that perpetuates the notion of a “hierarchy of suffering”. Whose suffering is more important, whose life is more important? I think it is this kind of thinking that gets us into the trouble we are in with respect to dominance and power, who gets to be heard and who is silenced.
   AFS: Do you really believe what you are writing? Do you Homo sapiens as a successful species, as we sit here waiting to self-destruct from own inability to control violence and greed ? Do you really believe that a diet that is based on the suffering of other beings, that celebrates dominance and power to the exclusion of compassion and respect is really at the heart of “success”?
   As for “condemning the rest of us” for eating meat, I suggest you take a look at the media representation of vegetarians and vegans, who are inevitably scorned and ridiculed. Moreover, if you think you aren’t being told what to eat by every agency available to push a meat diet, then you are truly delusional.

8. boochips March 1st, 2007 1:32 am

   Thank you Colleen…wonderful….

9. kitty_tc March 1st, 2007 3:42 am

   Militant vegans come from the liberal end of the same kind of holier than thou people that want to elevate themselves by moralizing against others. I don’t take kindly to being accused of “cruelty” like I’m some kind of animal nazi for eating as nature intended me to.

   As a pagan, I do not condemn the use of prey animals for their intended purpose, that of feeding predatory species. And like it or not, humans are naturally in that category. Who are you to condemn the natural cycle that the food chain represents? Who are you to condemn people who follow the natural way of things?

   No, unnecessary cruelty should not be tolerated. Waste and gluttony are wrong. We should respect nature, and take from it what we need and tread as lightly as possible. And things can certainly be improved in the way we do things, no doubt about it. But militant veganism is a lot less about progressive wish for improvement than it is about fundamentalist style moralism.

   Fortunately, the status quo won’t continue much longer. Technology is under heavy development that can grow meat in laboratory conditions, like hydroponic vegetables, on a potentially much more efficient basis. According to articles on the topic, it’s likely to become common in under a decade. Advantages include lack of waste and disease, streamlining of production methods, consistency of product, lessening of costs, and vast improvements in production capacity. Wheras an animal might grow to maturity in a year or more, a equivalent content of meat can be grown in six weeks, with vastly less required to feed, maintain, and process it.

   Maintaining animals and raising them to slaughtering age is a costly, messy, laborious process. The benefits of the new process will ensure the old methods are phased out. Then what will you look down your nose at people for?

10. jp March 1st, 2007 9:56 am

    Kitty tc

    I find it difficult to understand the label “militant vegan” but I suppose it represents one more example of trying to refute a good argument by simply smearing the person.

    I assume that you hunt your own food and dispatch your prey as quickly and painlessly as possibly. If you do in fact buy meat from a store, then, sadly, you may not be an “animal nazi” but, like the good Germans who simply did nothing or benefitted from the practices of the Nazis, you are part of a system that has institutionalized cruelty on a scale never before seen. What’s more, you write as though you are aware of the nature of capitalist industrialized food production and call it a “messy, laborious process.” It is interesting that you don’t add the term “cruel” to your list, since for the animals whose every natural instinct is frustrated and who are treated as nothing more than production units, they experience nothing but suffering their entire lives. So “cruel” could certainly be added to your list.
    I don’t frankly know how “nature intended” that I eat, since I have been doing quite well as a vegan for over 20 years now.
    Am I a moralizing and self-righteous? Perhaps, but then aren’t all reformers and all who are disgusted with the status quo? Why are you more concerned about my being moralizing and self-righteous and not more concerned about the suffering and crieulty inherent in a capitalist system of food production in which cruelty and suffering are built into the “product”?

11. marielong March 1st, 2007 10:29 am

    Thanks, Colleen, for your very very good article. It’s the power over paradigm that is so truly reflected in the current regime in the U.S. that has brought our species to the brink of destruction.

12. JHI March 1st, 2007 10:55 am

    First, it is debatable the humans are intended to eat meat, though the meat and dairy industries who tell you need their products would never admit to that. Interesting that recommendations for fighting disease and living a healthier life beyond a doubt focus on eating more fruits, vegetables and grains and less meat. Cultures that eat more meat suffer from more illness and disease - pure and simple. There are many things I probably could eat - doesn’t mean I am biolgically meant to do so.

    Second, showing compassion for animals does not preclude compassion for human beings. Sure there are people who like animals more than humans, and when I see the way the humans behave a lot of the time, I cannot say I blame them. However, a lot of people who fight for the rights of animals also fight for the rights of people. These are people who do not like injusice, abuse and domination in any form, who think that all beings should be free to live their lives and live them free from pain, suffering and fear. William Wilberforce who fought for 40 years to end slavery in England also showed great compassion for animals and helped start the RSPCA. Henry Bergh, who founded the ASPCA, also founded the American Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Children. This only names two of many. To make a broad generalization that those who love animals do not show the same love and compassion for humans is unfounded.

    Third, the meat industry in particular, is cruel to the humans who work in it as well. Read Fast Food Nation for a bit of exposure to that. The physical and psychological damage inflicted on people who work in slaughterhouses are immense. I am not sure it’s even been studied as to what the effects are of say: having to manually sexually stimulate turkeys to gather their semen to then artifically inseminate into the female? Which is indeed what has to happen. Additionally, the pollution and stench and insect investations that people who live near factory farms and slaughter houses must endure are criminal.

13. imagi March 1st, 2007 12:38 pm

    Thank you for your article - the topic needs some airing. I studied economics and finance and understand the economic implications of ridding animals and their products from our diets. And I understand that we all have a right to live how we each choose to live. And we need to respect each others’ views.

    I have theoretically and intellectually always believed that non-violence in all food and all life is important for the continuation of life on this planet and have experimented with vegetarianism in the “old hippie days”. It is so hard to intellectually know something and yet not be able to “live your belief” (like how hard it was for me to quit smoking cigarettes).

    On the other hand, I have been forced to forego meat in the past due to severe allergic reactions to all the antibiotics, hormones, chemicals, etc in meats. I recovered and resumed the historial American diet. Recently, however, I noticed my cholestrol was getting borderline high and was told it is hereditary, so just take another ‘harmaceutical ill’. I was determined to fix the problem myself so I went on a complete vegan diet for the past six months. I found it was difficult to find enough food easily enough on the east coast, but I did.

    I now feel better and think more clearly and really feel a sense of accomplishment that I am “living my religion”. And my cholestrol is significantly lower!

    But the heart of the matter is that all life on this planet is sacred and I think mankind is so arrogant to think that it is more important than any other life form on this planet. Does anyone ever think that maybe all living beings are just individual cells making up a planetary body? No other species ruins their own drinking water and environment. I sometimes think we are the lowest form of life on this planet.

    We can learn a lot from other species by watching them. We can learn how to help our species more by learning from other species, too. We obviously don’t know how to help ourselves to well. We need to all become aware of our ideals, our actions, and, especially, the consequences of our actions.

    Just food for thought! Enjoyed all of the comments!

14. JHI March 1st, 2007 2:20 pm

    “No other species ruins their own drinking water and environment. I sometimes think we are the lowest form of life on this planet.”

    Nicely said, imagi. Humans are clearly the most foolish - even more so because we are smart enough to know better and act differently.

    I do not know of any other species that breeds, genetically mutates, and imprisons its own prey, either. Humans have mastered cruelty in that regard, and in other ways as well. There’s an exhibit at the Bronx Zoo that says this is the most violent and destructive species on the planet - the exhibit is a mirror. Very telling.

    Also, if you watch predator and prey animals in the wild, for the most part they coexist quite peacefully and let each other go about their lives. Lions will lounge in the presense of their prey, and the prey seems to know when the lions mean to hunt and when they don’t.

    Humans like to say they are animals when it’s convenient to do so - that they are acting on their animal instincts or behaving as nature intended them to do (eating meat, etc.) - and yet at other times say they are superior to animals, and have the right to control them and the natural world.

15. blessthebeasts March 1st, 2007 2:43 pm

    Kitty–If you think that “growing meat in laboratory conditions” is not “unnecessary cruelty”, you have really bought into the food industrys’ plan for the American consumer. Do you really believe that this is the “natural cycle of the food chain?”

16. pangolin March 19th, 2007 10:13 pm

    Once again the vegan myths ignore scientific evidence. Every archeological site of pre-civilization man that is more than just bones shows evidence of meat or fish eating. Every one. People evolved eating meat.

    Further the evidence is clear that the advent of farming resulted in malnutrition for a majority of the population that switched from hunter-gathering to farming cultures.

    People who criticized my original post by calling me a “speciesist” or “people first” actually demonstrate a remarkable hatred of their fellow humans. Pets get more resources, better health care, better housing and have more laws protecting their welfare than the poor in america. Those PETA protesters probably kick a homeless person on their way to Whole Foods to get their organic mate and quinoa.

    99.9% of vegans in the US are URBAN!!. They may grow a few greens and some fruit in their backyards but they rely on urban networks for food just like the meat eaters. When all of your holier-than-thou vegans give up your cars and your cities you can start lecturing meat eaters about waste and pollution. Not until then.

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19. bnroxacetiko December 26th, 2007 7:31 pm

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