18 Comments so far

1. armybrat March 12th, 2007 2:01 pm

   Isolation leads to paranoia. The US is every bit as paranoid as North Korea - and for the same reasons. Paranoia always leads to self-destruction because the bulk of assets must be used to ‘defend’ the nation from imaginary enemies, thus the huge military expenditures at the expense of the rest of society. Logic makes such a situation unsustainable.

2. PJD March 12th, 2007 2:21 pm

   Carrolls columns always irritate me - they can be quite good like this one was, but there is always that constraint, no doubt borne of his desire to keep his MSM/Boston Globe job.

   I’m sure the firing of Coleman McCrthy from the Washingtom Post in 1997, for being too much of a “peacenik”, is always on his mind.

   In this article it is this line: “A precious opportunity to turn the world away from nuclear weapons, and away from war, is once more being squandered — by America. And what candidate running for president makes anything of this?”

   Of course ther is one candidate making something of this, but if you mentioned him, it would be off to the ranks of the obscure syndicated-columnists for him.

   The guys name is Dennis Kucinich, and his position on N-arms is here:

   http://kucinich.us/issues/nuclear_weapons.php

3. cosmobilly March 12th, 2007 6:36 pm

   Logic is perplexing to most folks, in that logic does not necessarily imply correctness. In other words, for Carroll’s discussion, it is not the logic that is faulty but rather the premise from which the logic has followed.

   One can rationalize quite logically without questioning or examining a foundational assumption. It is “if A then B” but that does not say that A is in fact true, merely that if A were true then B would also be true. In science and math it is relatively easy to carry forth the logic, in order to reach an ultimate conclusion that exposes or confirms a premise. For social matters it may be generations, or even centuries, before a faulty premise (or hypothesis), such as that founding Truman Doctrine, is exposed.

   Carroll is right on the money in prompting us to examine the foundational assumptions of foreign policy. And it does not take an expert in logic to realize the direction things are/have been going.

   But unfortunately, until the social costs become too great, there is not likely to be very much of an examination of our underlying assumptions. Yet even then, a new but faulty premise may be assumed which could lead to many more decades of social experimentation.

   Until we learn, as a race of beings, how to allay rather than agitate other nations and cultures we will, quite logically, find ourselves locked into never-ending cycles of conflict. The presumptuous and conceited premise of “you must think and believe as us” is a faulty premise. Period. The proof is in the pudding, as they say, not just for the USA but for every civilization that has proceeded us.

   Carroll is positively on the right track.

4. lover of peace March 12th, 2007 7:58 pm

   Thanks for bringing this topic into the open air. We are the rogue nation here, not North Korea or Iran or Russia or China… I must agree with PJD, there IS a wonderful candidate for President, who is being totally ignored by the MSM, Dennis Kucinich. Unfortunately for us, he is never spoken of as a serious candidate since he won’t take donations from large corporate donors.
   When are we going to realize that rebuilding our nuclear weapon stockpile is ILLEGAL and immoral? We signed the Nuclear Nonproliferation Treaty so to start building new weapons is a violation of Federal Law. But of course it’s real good for business….

5. Ken Mitchell March 12th, 2007 10:12 pm

   I supported going into Korea and Desert Storm because we were fighting invasions. I supported going into Afghanistan in 2001 because that country attacked us. Otherwise, well put.

6. Com_n_sense March 12th, 2007 11:06 pm

   There’s a problem … we don’t have another 60 years to try and get it right.

   If you want to know why neither of the two so-called leading parties of the so-called leading democracy in the world simply doesn’t give a shit it’s because most of them know this - if anyone thinks the next 60, or 30, or even 10 years are going to be like the previous they’re insane. And it’s every man for himself.

   There’s no time left to make things right. Fixing it doesn’t exist.

   Logic won’t matter.

7. Lobo Gris March 13th, 2007 12:58 am

   “Speaking of budgets, who questions the recently unveiled Pentagon total for 2008 of more than $620 billion? (Under Bill Clinton, the defense budget went from $260 billion to about $300 billion.) Even allowing for Iraq and Afghanistan, how can such an astronomical figure be justified?”

   Silly rabbits, how else does anyone think that Bush is keeping the economy going other than to hose it down with borrowed federal money?

   The day of reckoning is coming, Bush is just trying to stave it off until after he leaves office in the vain hope he won’t get blamed for it when it crashes.

   Lobo Gris

8. Rick March 13th, 2007 7:05 am

   Here is are few questions for you and if don’t already know the answers,do a little research.
   Who financed the Bolshevik revolution?
   Who backed Stalin and Lenin with lots of money? Who financed Trotsky’s return to Russia?

   Who made sure in early part of 20th century that their would be a so-called evil empire to wage war against for along time to come?
   I’ll help you. Follow this link
   http://reformed theology.org/html/books/bolshevik_revolution/

9. Rick March 13th, 2007 7:08 am

   Sorry the link on the original
   post does not work.Here it is again.
   http://reformed-theology.org/html/books/bolshevik_revolution/

10. observer March 13th, 2007 10:16 am

    With due respect to James Carroll I have to agree that his job with Globe dictates his outlook. Alas, he is not alone. The whole American nation cannot escape bounds imposed on her by historical circumstances. Collapse of European system of nation-states in 1914 and beginning of collapse of colonialism delivered to the USA undeserved status of world preeminent power, reinforced by nuclear monopoly by itself a result of European collapse.
    At that crucial moment in the history of Euro-American civilization the United States had clear choice: to continue path of New Deal along the philosophy of cooperation and freedom of want both domestically and internationally; or reverse the New Deal by going back to Hobbesian world of each for himself against everybody else.
    Truman has chosen policy of containment of the Soviet Union aka Cold War, in which both sides perished. Soviet Union was transformed into garrison state, while having been surrounded by American military bases even more so than she was after bloody Civil War and military intervention. Unites States was transformed into garrison state by supporting and expanding those very bases. Unable to share real purpose of Cold War with American people, American Government had chosen the path of total brainwashing first American people and finally that segment of population that is called civil service.

    As a result, Soviet Union collapsed leaving unmanageable political and economical chaos in its stead. In its turn, the United States is divided as she never was since Civil War and what is some people call ”cacophony of democracy” in fact is nothing more as economic, military and political chaos. The realization of this collapse of order by public at large is what rulers of this country fear the most. The war in Iraq is the closing chapter of “containment” policy led by the USA against the rest of the world. War in Iraq is also opening chapter of “containment of the USA” policy led by the rest of the world with China at the helm.

    I am not sure that even Roosevelt could stay a temptation of “military” success any better than all following American presidents, but Harry Truman, specifically chosen for his unsophisticated banal obedience, was the worst choice of them all. You can call plain spoken Harry the Southern revenge to American high-mindedness, only because he was.
    Last 60 years driven by the rise of militant South might be considered as blowback of the American original sin: slavery, for which Southerners paid with their well understandable paranoia. One cannot enjoy life based on rape of other human beings without constant fear of retribution. Hence, decades after Emancipation South breeds paranoiac attitude toward non-existent Left - Socialism to say least about Communism. The later is now called euphemistically Communitarianism.
    The main Truman’s folly was to misinterpret the two most important events of 20th century, Russian and Chinese Revolutions. And in that he was followed by long train of American Presidents, such as LBJ and finally Clinton sandwiched between Bushes. They were all driven by military establishment, having no guts as in case of Bill Clinton, or minds as in case of both Bushes, to stop American drift toward abyss.
    For no matter what current or future occupants of White House, Capitol Hill or Pentagon may think or do, the coming back of Asia already put to a close Euro-American domination of the world.
    Thus, our task is not saving status quo, which exist only in delusional brains of majority of Americans. Our task is to salvage of what is left of American Republic, if it is not to late already.

11. Shah Kenaw March 13th, 2007 11:00 am

    I don`t think he even comes close to how bad it is.

    The USA has been acting like Prometheus in the closet the world has become since Verner Von Braun put together a useful ICBM. As far as non alignment went there were only two options. Those who fought back, the Warsaw Pact et al, and those who lay low, “jr. NATO allies” or were plainly cannibalized (Sese Seko, Pinichet, Marcos, Suharto, Fujimori, Peron, yada yada yada)

    The Soviet Arms race was never ever ever anything but a reaction to the most aggressive, potent, intrasigent and hostile nation out there.

    Everyone with the slightest bit of horse sense and knows Wellington from Washington will know that the Hiroshima and Nagasaki bombs were nothing more then tests on civilian populations meant to bring the USSR in line.

    Would the USSR, after Stalin, have spent a anything more then necessary to build a basicly useless military if the USA were cabable of even refering to them without literally threatening their lives?

    This is America. Isolation breading paranoia doesn`t begin to cover how blatantly, willfully, aggressivly, proudly and dangerously ignorant it has become.

    Iraq is end of it. That`s all. The one and only reason Bush comes out as the worst isn`t because this addled cokehead of a fortunate son is running the country into eventual revolt. The only thing he has been really doing is turning back the clock. On civil rights, on labor rights, enviromental protection etc… It has been this bad before.
    In 1929. Apart from cell phones and flying cars the poorest of the poor are in fact doing better then those back then.

    The reason why this actually is the end for the American Empire is because America can not take the kind of crash which started the Great Depression. It`s importing the majority it`s oil, raw materials and food. And the olny thing keeping the “peasants”, aka the middle class, or anyone with a salary, from spazing it postal is that same salary.

    The “underclass”? Ask Huey P. Newton. The only thing that`s kept them from laying waste was the crack “epidemic”.

    Crash? What crash? Have you heard this lately?
    “There is no reason to beleive the current prosperity will come to an end.”
    or
    “Real estate prices NEVER go down”

12. Shah Kenaw March 13th, 2007 11:03 am

    Ummm

    “My greatest acheivment was to tear down the New Deal” R. Reagan

    googlit

13. voxclamantis March 13th, 2007 11:55 am

    I’m afraid I agree with Com-N-sense, as unconstructive as his lack of optimism might be. George Bush is not a mistake or a poor choice on our part. George Bush is a punishment. He is the consequence of mistakes dating back to Harry Truman and beyond, a revelation of the hidden thief that drives the logic of tribal dominance. He is the emergent beast at the core of human nature.

    Thorne Smith said: Government should be small and funny. If Bush success in transitioning America to a gelded, third rate power, he will have been redeemed by history.

14. drwu March 13th, 2007 12:07 pm

    Outlining a troubling history of 60 years of faulty logic in foreign affairs—a world divided between good and evil, you’re either for us or against us, and we will use forceful intervention to stop anyone who gets in our way, James Carroll is no doubt right in noting “What must be criticized, and even dismantled, is nothing less than the national security state that Truman inaugurated on this date in 1947.”

    But how do you do that in a world with a limited supply of oil and where everyone wants it? Our current struggles in the Middle East, Russia, China, Venezuela, etc. reflect this dynamic. Ruthless competition has ensured that the world’s biggest oil user, the US, needs to control access so as to prevent emerging powers from grabbing it. To wit, we have stationed 5 battle carrier groups to patrol the middle eastern oil routes, we’ve seen to it that the new Iraqi Hydrocarbon law US oil allows only US oil companies, not Russian or French, to do business in Iraq, etc.

    Dick Cheney faulted the Russians for controlling pipelines and using them as a “tool of intimidation and blackmail.” However, when we do it’s called a wise trade policy. The battle for energy resources are the nub of our current predicament. This could well lead to war and, as Carroll wisely concludes, no candidate running for president is even talking out it.

15. observer March 13th, 2007 12:33 pm

    To Shah Kenaw
    The future of the USA will resemble demise of Soviet Union: with wimp, not with a bang. Why? I remember how starting from early 1980s Soviets nukes had stopped to cause fear and that was end of it. Why, because they exposed their impotence in Afghanistan. Just remember call of for Soviet citizens to perform their so called international duties south of the border: it was laughable. It was not so when the Red Army smashed Central Asia in 1920s, distributing land to the peasants, building modern hospitals and eliminating centuries old epidemics, illiteracy and exploitation. At that time Kremlin did not need lies for Reds were on the right side of history. That spirit was long gone by the end of World War II. Then there came Republicans with new Red Scare and rebuilding the Fourth Reich, this time on American soil. Dull, Duller, Dullest had brought Abwehr’s Geller to combine Nazi assets with those of dying British Empire from Gibraltar to Hong Kong. They repeated folly of Wall Street operators on the grandest scale possible – grab what you can without any thought of the day after. Play mad if necessary. Than the Soviet peoples understood that USSR had stopped being the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics and Eastern Block ceased to be Coalition of Willing. It was corrupted into Empire, based on coercion. Even Russian patriots decided to shed that Empire. Opening of archives had a lot to do with that decision. Plus relentless psychological war waged by the USA. Gorbachev essentially deny reason d’état for the American Empire. The bluff of the Bastion of Democracy was called on and Bush obligingly tear republican mask off for everybody to see real fangs of Uncle Sam.
    Only mindless people cannot see terrorism for what it is. Italian Republic was built on terrorism; remember carbonaries, Mazzini at al. Russian czarism was defeated by terrorists, so was British imperialists in Iraq and Palestine. OBL was not born yet when King David Hotel buried administration of British High Commissioner. What we call terrorism in foreign lands we call police brutality on American soil.
    I do not see American withdrawal from Iraq anytime soon and this is good for America. Letting blood is ages honored cure against obesity. Meanwhile, the rest of the world will get used to live without American dictates and once it gets used to it there will be no way back. The USA will become irrelevant the same way as USSR did. This kind of scenario is guaranteed by coming back of 5000 years of common sense civilization that we can challenge only to our peril. An peril it will.

16. observer March 13th, 2007 12:53 pm

    To drwu: “But how do you do that in a world with a limited supply of oil?” You don’t. At least, in the market economy as we know it. However, since implicit cost of oil will rise exponentially by including cost of military to “support” free flow of oil, the economy of scarcity will be in order and much sooner than we think. In fact, FDR hade shown that at least in his time, organizational capabilities of American industrialists were matched only by Germans and Russians. Can it be repeated? I think so. Czars created mess out of Russia and so did Hitler and Tojo. Nevertheless all those countries were able to shed their miseries in no time and provided stellar examples of rejuvenations. All of them were led by high spirits. I believe that American Dream may serve the same high purpose, provided it is not dream of individual selfishness. The chances to wake up American people are slim but not nil.

17. Republicrat-Demican March 14th, 2007 1:52 pm

    The U.S. has been “ACCIDENTALLY reinforcing…belligerent elements in Iran and North Korea.” As if there were anything accidental about this. If we don’t create enemies/bogeymen to scare the wits out of the populace, how can said populace be bludgeoned into paying $700 billion on “defense”?

18. bnsunavawaty January 1st, 2008 6:22 am

    titnusocopeso…

    exvasetoxavo…

Join the discussion:

You must be logged in to post a comment. If you haven't registered yet, click here to register. (It's quick, easy and free. And we won't give your email address to anyone.)