38 Comments so far

1. ezeflyer March 21st, 2007 3:46 pm

   It’s abundantly clear that threats and demonstrations from progressive Democrats are impotent against Big Money bribes. We may love Kucinich, Lee, Waters, Stark and our progressive Dem representatives, but they are only serving to keep progressives in the corporate conservative Dem Party’s fold, who will continue to take us for granted. Progressive Democrats need leverage against Big Money. One good way is to defect to the Green Party en masse, The Greens are the largest, fastest growing and international third party that takes no corporate bribes and represents ALL progressive values. Or at least, to become Independents and vote for progressives of whatever party or third party they belong to. We should let them know in this way, that we will not vote for a straight Democratic ticket unless the entire Democratic Party, not just the party’s progressive representatives, adopt our progressive values. This should not only give progressives leverage, but will undoubtedly raise election turnouts to progressive’s advantages. Too many of us don’t vote because we don’t see much difference in the two corporate parties.

2. Joel Wendland March 21st, 2007 3:52 pm

   This article doesn’t count as journalism sorry to say. It’s own abuse of statistics also fail the smell test, and its name-calling (”Soviet” whatever) is offensive and abusive. Thanks for not shedding light on the issue CommonDreams.

3. PJD March 21st, 2007 5:43 pm

   Joel,

   Commondreams provides analysis of current events from the pregressive left perspective. As all analysis starts from a set of understood values, so should journalism. Your understanding of journalism as utterly valueless stemography for the wealthy and powerful is exactly what is wrong with mainstream journalism, particularly NPR/PBS, today.

   Moveon is just phoney “liberal” astroturf for the DLC/AIPAC establishment. It has been since the Kerry campaign.

4. Ron March 21st, 2007 5:58 pm

   Ezeflyer - The Greens do not support all progressive values as you claim. When our local (Tampa Bay) Greens suggested a pig roast as a fund raiser, I suggested a veggie dinner would be more Green. I was physically attacked and thrown out of the meeting by thugs who said they were sick and tired of political correctness. May the Greens rot in hell. What a bunch of anti-ecology hypocrites! Until the Greens go veggie, they are just another same old same old mainstream claiming to be different than the same old same old mainstream.

5. opeluboy March 21st, 2007 6:36 pm

   PJD is exactly correct. I stopped even opening their emails a couple years ago. MoveOn is indeed a front for faux liberal Zionists who pretend to be antiwar. Think Al Franken.

6. montemerrick March 21st, 2007 6:39 pm

   hard to understand what joel is talking about - not exactly name calling here - and the statistics ae easily verified - so - i dont get that-

   as far as tampa bay greens go - who knows - in seattle they’re pretty vegan - so you cant really call all greens thugs just cause you wandered into a strange group - and dont forget - homeland security is everywhere - infiltrating every one - i mean really greens beating you up cause you suggested that a pig not die - think about it and see if it passes the “Smell” test - and what in the world does that mean, anyway???

   as far as MoveOn goes - well lets just say the reason that 96% didnt vote is because MoveOn stopped being relevant over two years ago and we just dont lookat the emails anymore.

   lets face it - anyone who thinks electoral politics works in this country at the moment is deranged and hasnt given the most cursory glance to the news - Board of elecction workers in ohio are doing time for rigging the recount, right - so there’s 2004 for you - and we all know about 2000 -

   it is going to take something besides congress to stop the madman - and the chances of that something coming from with the US is about the same as old mephistopheles turning himself in -

   meanwhile people die, oceans rise and species extinguish like drowned flame

7. montemerrick March 21st, 2007 6:46 pm

   oh yeah, i almost forgot

   remember your thoreau to wit:

   There is but little virtue in the action of masses of men. When the majority shall at length vote for the abolition of slavery, it will be because they are indifferent to slavery, or because there is but little slavery left to be abolished by their vote.They will then be the only slaves

8. Richard valentine March 21st, 2007 8:04 pm

   I agree with PJD, Montemerrick, ezeflier and opeluboy.
   Move On really lost alot of credibility with this poll. They are useful for many liberal social issues such as the environment but on the big issues like ending Corporate control of our Democracy, single payer healthcare, and our neverending Military Empire of invasions, occupations, 737 Military bases in 135 countries and more than a half Trillion dollars for War and the “Defense” Department each year: Forgetaboutit! They will be getting out the vote for Hillary, in 2008, who says “We have a strategic interest in Iraq” in keeping a military presence there longterm.
   I joined the Green Party last year after 30 years as a Democrat after my Representative ignored my calls to support Lynn Woolsey and Barbara Lee’s proposals to end funding and set a timetable for withdrawal the last three years. I joined the Green Party when I saw unanimous support in the senate for supporting Israel’s War Crimes against the civilians of Lebanon last year.

9. AmericasConscience March 21st, 2007 8:27 pm

   Dear John: I loved your book and appreciate you, but on this particular matter I believe you are being far too unrealistic! The Democrats just don’t have the votes to stop the war. End of discussion. And without the votes, they appear unorganized and splintered. The Pelosi bill is a bill that will FORCE the hand of the Republicans and mandates a date to end this miserable war of choice. Politics is and will always be about spinning the message and in today’s world getting the media behind your message is 3/4 of the battle. I totally support Moveon and believe they were being SMART on behalf of their membership. Getting Democrats to bail out of Moveon or becoming Greens simply waters down any chance for concerted efforts. Watch FOX News and see how happy the talking heads are when idots from Code Pink demonstrate in Democrats offices. We must keep the pressure on the Republicans and stay united! Pelosi’s bill is the smartest way to do that!

10. JH March 21st, 2007 10:01 pm

    Pelosi’s bill has a huge problem: The language that required W to get congressional approval before any attack on Iran has been removed. Is this a way to give permission implicitly to an expansion of this conflict? I am baffled by this strategy. I am baffled at the weakness of the Dems. I can’t help but see them as no different from the rubber-stamping Republicans, just a little more “nuanced.”

11. NeoCogito March 21st, 2007 10:06 pm

    What a great article. And!! you just gotta L–O-V-E Joel, and in particular for skipping the usual euphemisms like “beltway,” “mainstream,” “establishment” & tellin it like it is in: “Moveon is just phoney “liberal” astroturf for the DLC/AIPAC establishment”.

    I mean we’re getting!! a real break from the beltway: usually the wolves don’t
    send up flares when they’re raiding the henhouse. But here! they’re urging us to celebrate!!?? the big fundraisers who’ve gained power & privilege at the people’s (our) expense.

    The royal couple has things pretty tied up –running the overwhelming majority of democratic web-sites. “Move On,” and Markos of “DailyKos” who hides behind a “permissive” policy in re profanity & all kind of foul language, spazzed & censored my post forthwith when their right-center readers showed an interest in my factual, no-name calling post. “Clinton (policies) Did All The Heavy Lifting– for GWB.”

    The big fund raising Secular Conservative (Neo-”Democrats”) a/k/a Clinton zealots are corporate shills, and in that they’re paid to violate democratic institutions have dangerously subverted democratic process.

    The candidates we oughta trust the most to honor democratic process are probably those ignored and/or trashed the most. Big-Dog fronts like “MoveOn” who represent themselves as progressive democrats really hurt us. After all, it was candidate Clinton who told us in ‘91:

    “I expect the jetsetters and featherbedders of corporate America to know that if you sell your companies and your workers and your country down the river, you’ll be called on the carpet.” Notwithstanding that the
    Lieber/Clinton, Libertarian Secular Neo-Cons (DLC), mentored by the Clintons in the 80’s was formed to resist workers human/civil rights, reject unions and rescind all social contracts of the New Deal and the Great Society

12. BigNoseKate March 21st, 2007 10:17 pm

    MoveOn no longer has as many members as it claims to: progressives are bailing out on the organization. MoveOn supporting this bill is no different than the AARP supporting the “donut hole” prescription drug bill. However, unlike the AARP membership, MoveOn’s former supporters know when they’ve been stabbed in the back. They are not operating on their “former” influence anymore…I think this will become more obvious in 2008.
    BNK

13. derailwar March 21st, 2007 10:32 pm

    I have cancelled my subscription to MoveOn.org. Their poll was the straw that poked my eye.

14. Vince Lawrence March 22nd, 2007 12:27 am

    Perhaps AmericasConscience should do themselves what Common Dreams hasn’t been able to do yet for this forum service - RESET THE DAMN CLOCK!

    Your argument doesn’t hold water at this hour, as it doesn’t ususally at most hours. For at least a couple of minutes, progressive or otherwise, we let ourselves allow that it might just hold water and voted your solidarity into semi-power (pseudo power?)

    How can you urge solidarity around strategies that sell out what a majority of the unelected want? For a discreet and judicious moment I also allowed myself the hope that, because things are so mind-numbingly bad many of the newbie elected really get it, and many of the incomebents (sic) would also decide that governance was now more important than polishit, and G War Bush would be forced into a corner.

    That moment has passed. I reset my clock and so should you. Every time that lonesome George whimpers “I’m in a CORNER now!!” the DLC moves a door right next to him and Hillary usually wipes the doorknob for him. (no inuendo intended, honest)

15. Babygoat March 22nd, 2007 12:29 am

    Ah, come on now…tsk-tsk-tsk…MoveOn is still vital, at least to/for me. Green’s? Well, did they offer a salad with the pig dinner? Independants? How many do we have in office now? Not many. Pelosi and gang? Just be a bit more patient! Give the womin some credit, of course, I’m disappointed to but it’s better to kick butt when it’s at the right angle…She’s still the best we’ve had in a very long while! BTW, I voted in the MO
    poll and my vote most likely counted! I voted
    against the proposal but because I’m willing to force a VETO from Bush….Then let’s see what happens? Hmmm?
    How about you put a little spring in your step it’s been a long cold bitter winter not to mention the past few years. Six?

16. NotOneMore.US March 22nd, 2007 12:55 am

    Moveon has left the stage, stage right. When they could have made a difference in the 2004 election, what did they do? Supported Kerry without any demand to end the War. That is when they became irrelevant to the peace and justice movement.

    And they are one of the ones who say that Nader was the spoiler, while resisting any concerted effort to bring about the end of the war by marginalizing any candidate that spoke out against the war (Kucinich and Nader).

    Two years later, the Democratic party is still too scared to speak up in a relevant manner against the war.

    I want a candidate who can tell me that the war was a mistake and contrary to basic principles of freedom and justice.

    How many more will have to die?

17. Vince Lawrence March 22nd, 2007 1:47 am

    Hey, I’m tired of being taken for a sucker, about thirty years tired.

    Nothing short of removal from office is going to seriously hamper this Administration. So can the warm-up act and cut to the chase. Dennis called for official deliberation of the impeachment remedy and on very solid and undeniable grounds.

    How many carriers, destroyers and frigates has this newly-directed Congress been able to recall from Iran’s horizon? “We are not preparing to attack Iran, we just think the water’s prettier there.” OK, we believe you, carry on men.

    You’ll feel a lot worse than silly when after pursuing a timidly calculated strategy of cat and mouse Bush up and bombs the hell out of Iran. How good does attaining the White House in 08 sound in those terms? Wow, that’s a job I’d love to have.

18. montemerrick March 22nd, 2007 3:01 am

    MoveOn treats Nader as spoiler????

    2 Board Of Elections workers in Ohio sentenced to 18 months for rigging the recount to avoid more thorough analysis - and Nader is the spoiler - how about the perpetrators of the crime - to refuse to put the blame where it goes - on the architects of a veritable coup d’etat, we all suffer - this is not ordinary politics and if we insist on talking political strategy as if its blue vs red - we’ll be having this conversation in the freaking grave of our world - abandon DC - now now now

19. Nanoo March 22nd, 2007 6:13 am

    My personal history with MoveOn is about 1 year. I thought that they made many issues easy with their petitions. I took the survey on the funding bill and voted no, and added my comments why. I was very surprized when they sent me the results. Pelosi should not have taken the threat of an attack on Iran out of the bill. Who cares if Bush vetoes. Perhaps the democrats could use that to their advantage so that nothing passes, that continues the publics outrage.

20. imors March 22nd, 2007 9:23 am

    This is why I no longer support moveon. Plus, I’d hate to be mistaken for a progressive.

    imors, a non-compliant

21. GeorgiaGreen30030 March 22nd, 2007 10:00 am

    John, To my reading, you missed making one critical point in your otherwise excellent analysis. Jessica Hearn’s article “Anti-War Dems Near Defeat on Spending Bill” clarifies that MoveOn’s “poll” failed to present the anti-war caucus’s alternative (to Pelosi’s travesty and failed leadership).
    Some neoliberals are still satisfied with MoveOn’s skewed and undemocratic representation.
    As for me, I moved on OUT of their lemming parade and of the “Democratic” party, too. I’m back with the Greens–putting principle, planet, and people before profit, pundits, and polls(always!). The Green Party of the US (www.gp.org) offers analysis and coalition-politics centered on deep democracy, ecology, justice, and nonviolence. Greens are progressive in every vital sense of the American revolution–reborn for today, for the non-voting American majority, and for the whole world.
    Ditch the Dems, y’all, with these damnable managed compromises–they’ll only ever bend towards the people’s agenda with a strong alternative party nipping at their heels (and surging past them at the polls).

22. auspiciousbunny March 22nd, 2007 10:15 am

    I have heard various dubious things about MoveOn since the conflict in Bosnia. I generally go elsewhere for anti-war info.

    I defected from Democrats also, after my two Senators ran on a platform of Stop Bush in new jersey then voted to approve the military commissions act.

    My one concern is that NJ’s green party get a more professional image.

23. Coyotita March 22nd, 2007 11:51 am

    Here’s another supplemental bill for you:

    A bill that would finance the immediate return of our troops, take care of their medical needs, and other vet benefits, including education.

24. Joel Wendland March 22nd, 2007 1:14 pm

    PJD, Your insulting posture and abusive language not only signals that you don’t know me, but that you favor the sort of journalism that suits a six year old. Name-calling? Come on. Grow up. Please. Best of Luck!

    Joel

25. alank March 22nd, 2007 3:04 pm

    This is from a letter I wrote to MoveOn while they wer conducting their “poll.”

    I [have participated in some] of the MoveOn-sponsored vigils, but I am angry and appalled by your position about the Democrat plan to authorizeze supplemental funding for the way.

    It is More Murder and Mayhem. There is NO excuse for a party that asked for and GOT the support of the American people, FED UP with a dictatorial regime that is off the charts with lies, abuse and death to act in that feeble way!!

    THIS IS NO LONGER AN INTERNET GAME we are playing, MoveON!!!!!

    Because of the nature of the internet and some of your early stands, you have become quite a political phenomenon. But you have received much more leverage and power than your limited political reasoning warrants.

    Running campaigns is interesting but you should NOT be in the business of setting political agendas. YOU ARE THE WRONG PEOPLE. The agenda is not worthy.

    You maybe good at internet information disseminating and organizing skills, but your lack of political sophistication, makes you use this marvelous tool you have created to basically shill for the Democratic Party which has undercut progressives and dissappointed America for decades!!!

    SO…Your position on this bill is simply appallingly awful.

    You say 80% “voted” for this. Do not try to call this a “vote”, it is much more like a Loaded Question. You have in essence used your newfound influence to PUSH for a very bad political position which brings further shame and damage to this country and to the world, and — YES — further ENABLES the rightwing neo-con agenda by showing that we will not stand up to their murderous ways!

    Shame on MoveON!! Get out of the OPINION and POLICY business!! Stick to organizing.

26. alank March 22nd, 2007 3:18 pm

    Do you want to see this Congress suddenly find courage to stop war funding??

    Well, check out Switch2Green.org. It says that if “50,000 Dems [100 k, even better] switched to Greens this week,” Congress would stop the Escalation next week, and put Impeachment back on the Table in the following week!

    Yeah! I say use whatever political leverage we can manage. The Green Move not only puts this sold-out Congress on notice, it also says clearly what progressives WANT!

    This could be a seriously important tactic.

    We shouldn’t let the old debate about Presidential politics interfere with doing something important that just might get quick and surprising results. After all you can still vote for whomever you want.

    Building an alternative that says what we think is not such a bad idea, either. At least it will be heard.

    BTW, forget the nonsense about veggie Greens. You’ll find some amount of sniveling, fundamentalist tunnel vision in all groups.

27. gmkaake March 22nd, 2007 3:36 pm

    So what was moveon supposed to do? “Guess” what the other members would vote for? If 85% of the those who answered said yes, what else are they supposed to do? Stauber is extreme. He just hates Moveon. Why doesn’t he spend some time analyzing the bill, and coming up with reasonable statements about why or why not we should support it? He just wants to trash Moveon. I think he stinks!

    It’s going to be tough to get this war stopped. But this kind of attacking our own side is ridiculous. At least there is wording in the bill to end the war in 2008, and there is a possibility it will pass, even with the congress we have.

    Here is another post on the bill, which I thought was really good:

    http://www.workingforchange.com/blog/index.cfm

    Sirota lays out the strategies with a much more reasonable approach. Sirota is progressive and very much anit-war and he recommends that the anti-war caucus, hold-out, get a concession, then vote yes on the bill.

28. gmkaake March 22nd, 2007 3:49 pm

    Also, I agree about the Greens. I am switching, and I thank commenters from common dreams who kept recommending it.

29. montemerrick March 22nd, 2007 8:25 pm

    So what was moveon supposed to do? “Guess” what the other members would vote for?

    Uh - moveon is not the government - i didnt get a ballot - and i dont thnk i would have participated if i had - i vote for my representatives, see - and for referendums, intitiatives - not PAC’s that think funding a war is the best way to end it - unless of course you figure that eventually everyone will be nice and dead peaceful

30. PJD March 22nd, 2007 9:38 pm

    Joel,

    As Howard Zinn said, “You can’t be neutral on a moving train” Neutrality is complicity in the status quo. And I think most of us here would consider the status quo to be completely intolerable.

    PJD

31. gmkaake March 22nd, 2007 11:44 pm

    montemerrick

    come on - the article is trashing moveon - it wasn’t about the government. moveon is doing the best they can. we need to stick together -trash the blue dogs why don’t u? congress can’t get a better bill passed atm - at least this is a step towards stopping the war. Or we can just stalemate and wait two years.

32. granfromwis March 23rd, 2007 6:59 pm

    I am very disapointed in the direction Move-ON is going… I organized a Vigil for Cindy Sheehan here in Madison a couple of years ago. Since then I have NOT been two impressed with Move-ON.. I am a member of the Green Party-due to the fact I am not too happy with the democracts we have in office, with the exception of a few, When MOVE-on send questionaire to me.. I said Undecided, Now that I am thinking about it I should have gone with my gut feeling and said NO to the Pelosi Plan.. We Need to get out of IRAQ NOW and start making amends to the suffering Iraqi People, especially the women and children , NO one ever thinks of them.. I do Not think I will remain a member of Move-On Much longer… Myrna-granfromwis

33. kate68 March 23rd, 2007 7:32 pm

    i think move-on has always been a moderate group to appeal to the masses. so there is a place for that. this doesn’t have to be an either or situation. there needs to be some movement. how about all you angry radicals join us federal war tax resisters? if you want this war to stop, stop paying for it. you want the congress to take a step more radical than you are willing to make? to stop all the funding. stop it yourself. people been telling me for years that what i do doesn’t matter, but you know what? i’m refusing to pay the bill. there is a place for all of us and our postions in trying to stop this and future wars. this is the long haul folks. kb

34. provoice March 24th, 2007 9:01 am

    Judging by the solid consensus in this forum, I can see why rational thinking and common sense is in trouble in this country and the governors feel that they can do whatever they want to the governed and no on will really ever get organized against them.

    MoveOn.org lost me when they failed to push Kerry for a commitment to an immediate end to the war… they lost me when they seemed to support certain candidates as the best of two evils rather than press the candidates for real change… all in all, MoveOn.org has lost me because they have inundated me with TOO MANY e-mails soliciting money or support for issues that are, at best, secondary to some of the problems of the country.

    The idea that I should join a party because they are comprised of vegans is as insane to me as joining a party because they claim to support family values… whatever those are.

    We have some truly serious issues at hand, and so far virtually no one is addressing them.

    1. Getting us out of the war in Iraq.

    2. Securing our ports and borders.

    3. Driving out illegal invaders who have entered this country to supposedly “take jobs Americans won’t do”… which appears to include drug smuggling, burglary, car theft, armed robbery and overloading of our social services.

    4. Huge unemployment that is conveniently not being counted by ANYONE and being lied about by the White House.

    5. Taking care of our wounded and mentally damaged veterans.

    6. Trade imbalance with countries like China who DO NOT have our best interests at heart.

    Frankly, based on the candidates currently touting their programs, I don’t hold a lot of hope for America as it once was.

    The Clintons have sold out to the war machine… Obama has no record… McCain is a sellout to the religious right… Guliani seems to have forgotten that HE vetoed the rdio equipment the firemen needed in the World Trade Center… Gore won’t run… so far, no one I would even go to the polls for.

35. NeoCogito March 25th, 2007 12:46 pm

    Hi Guys:
    Mine to Nader– saw him on TV the other night & just couldn’t help it. What!! a thankless career he’s had. The Green Party may *Now! be trying to draft him…

    Dear Dr. Nader:
    I watched you on TV the other night and marveled at your equanimity in light
    of the many years you’ve given to us, the people and how shamelessly your
    msg. and your tireless good work for us has been drowned out & cheapened by the
    Commodity Crusades which in terms of scope, sheer numbers & misery have put the
    Christian Crusades to shame. I watched you, Mr. Nader with tears in my eyes
    remembering you as a young man when you started your impassioned mission.

    Bless you, Sir, and thank you
    – from an America that remembers Democracy.

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